If you don't like what the Deaf community has to say about the choices you make/made for your Deaf child, you can easily walk away and maintain a "normal" life for you and your child. I mean, heck, you don't have to keep posting your blogs on Deaf centric websites whose target audience is the Deaf community itself.
But, no, you choose to remain and in that you have chosen to be a target before a passionate community which is adamant about their cultural and linguistic identity. On this, I need not say more. Besides, isn't it your aim to immerse your child into a world where all options are made available and all opportunities can be had?
You can tout that you do provide all options and all opportunities for your child while you unconsciously hope that you may phase out the sign language and reach your ulterior aim to produce a successful and functional child who can communicate primarily through speaking and hearing.
My mama was afraid I'd forget to speak and lipread... uh-huh!
You say this is ridiculous and that is understandable on our part because...
...you simply don't understand.
Like I said,.. it is understandable...tsk...
You can praise all the modalities and technologies that are made available while overlooking the fact that such things are oppressive to the choices others have made. Choices that are simple and noninvasive on the child's being.
All of this brings me to the question:
Why do you continue to post on Deaf centric sites if you want your child to be a part of the "greater" hearing world and not the Deaf community?
I mean, sure, you want to share with others your experience and your familial journey in what you might call "deafness". The pathological term. I'm not saying you can't, just don't do it before the people who are perfectly happy with being a Deaf person rather than a hard of hearing, hearing impaired, or cochlear implanted individual.
If you want us to respect your choices, please respect ours. If you can't do that, then let me say this once and for all...get the fuck outta here and be sure to take your arrogant ignorance and propaganda with you.
Deaf people will continue to celebrate their heritage for as long hearing people continue to become deaf.
HA!
p.s. One could argue that DeafRead is not Deaf centric,...I know what it is but hey,..you tell me what you think...*wink*
WELL-SAID, Jeff! I have been thinking along similar lines last couple of days.
ReplyDeleteHi Jeff,
ReplyDeleteI have gotten some comments from MFM on my blog and gotten to wonder about this lady.
She seems to be more concerned about her "new" ideology since her association with AGBell.
I am beginning to be concern her new attitude lately towards adopting the AGBell's oppressive method as being more of a "legal" terrorist -Al-Qaeda - approach towards the Deaf community's acceptation as a normal citizen that just can't hear.
Yes, I will write a blog about AGBell as a "legalized" terrorist - Al-Qaeda, that are recruiting parents of Deaf babies to destroy the Deaf community.
Go and look at the AGBell.org and go figure how they organize and subtlety brainwashing the gullible parents of Deaf children to be part of the "terrorist" to promote auditory only method ideology and "subtlety" disregard bilingualism for Deaf children.
MKM, it is time for you to stop and think what you are actually doing,..... are you for the Deaf children or the "terrorist" AGBell manipulative approach method?
To proclaim yourself as a successful gardener, you have to prove with your ripe fruit in the fall. Your daughter is not ripe yet.
How on earth do you think that I don't want my child to be part of the Deaf community? Is it the fact that we seek out Deaf community events? The fact that we attend a playgroup every week with other ASL using deaf kids? The fact that we attend the only church in our area that provides interpreters and has other Deaf members?
ReplyDeleteAs I have said a million times, and will probably have to say a million more, we continue to provide ASL and the Deaf community to our child. She has every opportunity to socialize with Deaf and deaf children. ASL will probably be a part of our lives, every single day until the end of my life.
I do not wish for my daughter to be forced out of the Deaf community. I would hope that the Deaf community would welcome her. If you are saying that she is not welcome because of the technology she uses, or her mode of communication...well, that's on you, not me.
MKP,
ReplyDelete"You can tout that you do provide all options and all opportunities for your child while you unconsciously hope that you may phase out the sign language and reach your ulterior aim to produce a successful and functional child who can communicate primarily through speaking and hearing."
What are your sentiments on the above comment?
MKP,
ReplyDeletep.s.
While I may praise you on your extended efforts to expose Kat to other Deaf people and American Sign Language, I must admit that your attitude has constantly shown you to discredit the Deaf experience from various individuals who have opted to participate in your discussions.
That, right there, is what I have a problem with. The attitude. Call it audism if you will.
Now...
Perhaps you could simply listen and observe what others have shared and take note of such things instead of simply disregarding their truths and making Kat an exception to a common experience that pertains to Deaf being.
You must also remember that it is not the parents or the child that the Deaf community wishes to remove from itself but the lies that the proponents of oralism have incessantly cast out amongst us.
Such is their tactic of dividing and confusing the community as a whole and maintaining their grasp on the economical means of "deafness".
Say...
Wouldn't it be nice to simply relate without having to compare one child to another based on their speech and listening skills?
I should think so.
Anyhow,..I thank you for swinging by and sharing.
I don't know what MKM did on other blogs, but this post is bull$hit. MKM is entitled to her opinion and from what I HAVE READ, I don't see her passing judgement on anyone here. She's just happy that she has an awesome daughter who can function in both worlds. That's awesome to me. John Egbert and Dr. Don G should know better. The deaf community is incredibly diverse and we should welcome ALL people. The acceptance of the deaf community should not be contingent on whether folks respect your opinions. Attacking a parent of a deaf child, that uses ASL by the way, is exactly what will make other parents of deaf children steer their child away from ASL. SMH.
ReplyDeleteJeff,
ReplyDeleteYou hit the nail on the head neatly! Pure and simple!
Like Good Samartians, we tried to help KMK discern the essence. In return, she calls us idiots.
Jean Boutcher
Thanks, Terlinguan, for the insight. I imagaine MKM sees herself as an advocate within the Deaf community for New Age Oralism. However, it's not working because she dismisses the very real experiences of the Deaf people as outmoded.
ReplyDeleteShe's overlooking that we still see the attitudes and beliefs ongoing today that harmed us in the past. No amount of hearing restoration nor speech skills will nullify the persistent Hearing attitudes that to hear is golden; not to speak is abominable, and deafness is to be abolished at all costs.
Still, she wants her daughter to be in the Deaf community and is encouraging it. She somehow feels that the support there is likely to be more nurturing than in the wider Hearing community.
It isn't the technology itself that will keep her out of that community, it's the attitudes that often are taught with it.
J.J.
ReplyDeleteYou might think this blogpost is bullshit and that's perfectly fine. I appreciate that you can express what your perceptions are and how it makes you feel when you read this post.
Bullshit it is. ;)
What you seem to be telling me and others is that we must be diplomatic and tolerant of the diversity our community entails. I believe we have. You also seem to hint that we must accept the negative attitudes people have about Deaf people who don't speak or hear.
Oh, so we must be passive/submissive because if not we will scare away potential advocates of ASL? We must accept that audism is just a part of the way hearing people think about us?
While you may HAVE read some of MKM's post I believe you HAVE overlooked the comments where she has dismissed others and their experiences as being irrelevant.
OKAY.
You might consider this an attack on a parent but it is far from it. I have simply chosen to express my thoughts on what I have seen and felt. And yes, my thoughts can be rather harsh.
You must also remember that it has nothing to do with the modality or the technology....it is the attitude. Please do not overlook this fact.
Attitude...that my CI using ASL signing English speaking kid is far better off than your plain jane ASL signing Deaf Mute. It's a real attitude and not some figment of our imagination.
Now, let's go back to diversity,...
How does this attitude promote diversity when it places one above the other as being superior in the world at large?
You tell me...I really want to know...
J.J.
ReplyDeleteYou must have not seen MKM's recent comments and yet you say we must respect her opinion and seems that we Deaf's opinions should be disregarded because we are not hearing....?
This is the attitude from some deaf people saying that we must respect the hearing's opinion at all times and we Deaf should humbly accept as if we have no pride of our own mind and knowledge.
J.J., I am really disappointed in you and your submissive attitude.
JJ, i happen to be in John Ebgert's & others' shoes...i agree with John's comment @ "we must respect MKM's opinion and seems that we Deaf's opinions should be disregarded because we are NOT hearing"...i read MKM's posts and Deaf weren't bashing her, just explained about our feelings with vibrations, not from hearing it and yet she refused listening them, why can't she say like "oh really, thanks for letting me know" but yet she bashed criticizing Deaf's comments/opninions....JJ, pretty please don't put words in our mouths...We are Deaf, NOT DUMB...your comment above really upsets me :(
ReplyDelete-CM
JJ, ASL and Deaf people are already shunned. Duh.
ReplyDeleteJeff/John/CM/Et al...
ReplyDeleteI don't read MKM's blog too much, but as I UNDERSTAND it:
1.) MKM was in the bathroom with her daughter and put down the toilet lid. Her daughter indicated that she heard the lid close.
2.) MKM said that her daughter had some residual hearing left and believed that her daughter heard it.
3.) Folks point out that the child might have felt the vibrations because deaf people are really good at picking up vibrations.
4.) MKM disagrees and believed that her daughter meant that she HEARD it.
5.) Folks accuse her of being dismissive of their comments about vibrations.
6.) MKM goes further and tests her daughter's hearing by doing the same thing outside of the bathroom on a different floor (not in the tub with water this time)...then furthers it by having her husband hold her daughter on a pillow.
7.) Folks continue to accuse MKM of dismissing their opinions about vibrations DESPITE MKM testing it further (which shows confirmation that she did not dismiss vibrations as a cause).
8.) MKM repeatedly explains that her daughter does have residual hearing per some tests and that her daughter was not deaf from birth. Her daughter has progressive hearing loss and therefore her brain pathways are more auditory based due to her former hearing ability.
9.) People continue to accuse her of dismissing their opinions.
Is that about right? Did I miss anything?
My opinion on this:
I don't know if MKM's daughter heard it or not, the only way to confirm this is an audiological exam. Doesn't matter..it's irrelevant...it was just a proud mother commenting that her daughter might have more residual hearing left than she thought. Big freaking deal....who cares? MKM's daughter might have heard it or might have felt vibrations...it's an argument in schematics. As for the "dismissing" part...I didn't see that. I saw it as MKM defending herself from attacks upon her character. Now, I don't know anything about MKM beyond a few posts here...but if the furor is specifically related to how MKM was supposedly dismissive in her blog and elsewhere only in REGARDS to the posts about her daughter hearing....I call bull$hit.
As for the part about how *I* am dismissing deaf people's comments, that is one big steaming pile of bull$hit. Don't even go there, I am deaf like the rest of you and damn proud of it. I always listen to deaf people the same as hearing people. Your hearing level has no bearing on my opinion towards your statements. I will dismiss anyone with a stupid argument regardless of who they are. A stupid argument is not deaf nor hearing, it's a stupid argument.
J.J.
ReplyDeleteMy issue with MKM's attitude was on my blog with her comments, the bashing-style which surprised me because I had respected her but seemed that her attitude changed to be more like Barry, Candy, Mike, etc.
It had nothing to do with hearing the toilet cover blog.
wow - i totally dont think this is about the toilet seat flapping
ReplyDeletei know that Miss Kat's Mom / Parent did diss the Deaf when she said "move on" re: making the invisible visible about oral / aural ONLYism and there is more JJ. Deaf folks usually dont get all uppity and confrontational unless there is just cause due to unjust actions. Ohhh im sure mkm referring to folks as idiot #1 and idiot #2 didnt sit well with some folks too
ODD i dont see folks preachy how to employ diplomacy at her nor do i see anybody saying to her:
We LOVE ya - we hear u tell us how we "should do things" and we have done all those things to no avail. We love ya enuf to tell ya the truth that maybe you should show a desire not to offend or antagonize or unwelcome us too - ya know it works both ways, babe. but nah, lets just scold the Deaf
re: the bellow to MOVE ON or the omission of REMEMBER HISTORY - we gotta ask why is it that Oral supporters do not want us to study our own history hmmmmm?
ODD, eh?
but some questions that have been posed and ignored in this blog entry and thread shall be repeated since a quest WE on
1. why does MKM hang out on the Deafside of town when hearing and speaking are all the rage?
hmmmmm
2. how can audistic attitudes possibly promote diversity?
those are two noble and just questions Jeff has presented here (reworded a bit now in the hopes that perhaps a 2nd reading will help MKM and JJ actually SEE them and wager an answer)
now re: your Postscript - Jeff. I got a question for you. How can Deafread be considered Deafcentric if it wont even acknowledge Deaf ASL (or other natural signed language people) in its guidelines and publishes entries celebrating the "hark she hears the thud of a toilet lid" instead
just asking
who should get the #uck out of where - is another question
NOTE folks - i love the folks at Deafread and know they got a mighty hard job but those guidelines need to recognize Deaf Natural Signed Language folks just as it recognizes other groups
fair is fair
its absence speaks volumes. kinda like the absence of their answers to ur questions
peace
patti
Thanks Patti re: the questions....
ReplyDeleteToilet seat flappin? Not even about that....
deys got 'tudes, YO!
Hello AGBell.
I see you.
*waving*
MKM aka MKP...hmmm....which is it?
I dunno...
hmm, again?
JJ,...mein Freund...where did *I* say YOU dismissed deaf people's experience?
could you please show me where...
much appreciated if you would...
Again,..que de las preguntas?
the questions???
Patti...re: deafread...to recognize would be to affiliated with the "abominable" and thus would be "damaging" to the reputation of deafread....
they're more concerned about being diverse along the pathological rather than the cultural..
of course,..I'm simply opining on such...
the worst possibility could be,...they've got a Rhett Butler response to it all,...
not give a damn...
So Deaf Centric?...nay
Deafness is the center.
you sees what I sees???
hmmmm...
And Anonymous,..I reckon you have something to say,.. yet I suggest you get a name if you want to partake...
Further comments:
ReplyDelete1.) John...OK...so this isn't about the bathtub thing. It's about MKM's history here? OK, gotcha...
2.) Patti, to answer Jeff's questions that you repeated:
a.) Why does MKM hang around here?
I don't even know why she does, but it's probably for the same reason I hang out on NFL football forums...because it interests me?
b.) How can audistic attitudes promote diversity?
It's really the DEFINITION of audism and how to INTERPRET it that's the sticking point here, in my opinion. I am of the belief that there are two parts of audism: One is when a person definitely looks down upon deaf people and thinks less of them and the other is when a person is simply ignorant. I am cool with the latter...people just don't know everything just as if I went to say Madagascar and offended some native with my words. The former is not cool. Another problem with throwing around the word audism is that its thrown around too freely if you ask me. Someone doesn't like your opinion? Audist! Someone doesn't like your car? Audist! Someone doesn't like your food? Audist!
I just think the word audist does not really apply to many people...that there are VERY FEW audists in the world compared to IGNORANT people. That's just my opinion though.
And...as for Deafread not being "deaf centric"...well what *is* "deaf centric" these days? ASL only? All groups? What?
Jeff,
My apologies...I misread John's comment in where he said I was being submissive and read it as dismissive. You didn't say that I dismissed anything.
And for future reference...I highly recommend that you take a page from McConnell's play book by offering LINKS to whatever MKM said wherever...not all of us have the time to read everything in the deaf blogsphere...I don't even go to DVTV, Alldeaf.com, Deafcube, and etc...I just read Deafread every day and click on links that look interesting to me...
And last, but not least...mad props for publishing my comments..I hate folks who hide behind their blogs and don't publish comments that disagree with their entry.
JJ,...a kind thank you,...for your acknowledging the errors and providing clarification of what was and is,...
ReplyDeleteRe: word audism,...yes it is loosely used and not many are familiar with it or have chosen not to recognize it...this can be a problem...
however,...I feel confident that I am aware of how and when it should be used,...
when the word is defined and recognized,...perhaps things will be better understood...
see see....
I have hope.
AND:
I'm here to publish whether I agree or not,... I'm just done with the anonymous bullshit,..
again,..Gracias.
J.J.
ReplyDeleteExactly,you are right that we have two kinds of Audist, the AGBell type that knows the truth but very subtly finds a way to misguide the public and the other is ignorant.
Yes, ignorant is our biggest problem and the answer to rectify this problem is educating those ignorant people but there are deaf and hearing people out there telling us that are trying to educate the ignorant people to respect their opinion and learn to be humble or let it go.
WE have more problems with ignorant people and they can be deaf people too such as candy, barry, mike, richard reohm, etc too.
How to resolve this problem that has been going on for too damn long since over 100 years ago is to stand up and speak out.
Don't ever tell any Deaf people to shut up and respect the oppressor's opinion.
It is simple as this: ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!
I am empowering the Deaf community and yet, we have those that are telling us to be submissive.
It is time to listen to your heart. The truth comes from your heart and please be strong to trust your heart.
J.J.,
ReplyDeleteYou nailed it, dude. ;)
Since when has residual hearing been considered against ASL and the deaf community?
Heck, I'm severe-profound deaf, and I can hear my dog's bark eight to ten feet away without hearing aids, ok? And no, those barks are sounds, NOT vibrations tickling the eardrums or the bone behind the ear. The dog plainly has a very loud, sharp bark. That observation's got NOTHING to do with sign language, peripheral vision, AGBell, what-have-you.
This MKM's observation of her daughter's residual hearing took on way more twists and turns, that next thing I read, a mountain got made out of a molehill. :(
Ann_C
Ann C,..again,..this has nothing to do with what MKM shared regarding her daughter's reaction to the toilet lid dropping,...
ReplyDeletenothing to do with that bit,...
attitude is everything,...
can you not see it?
jeffrey - another quote from Rhett regarding reputations that might relate to some of our attitudes re: DR
ReplyDelete"With enough courage, you can do without a reputation."
so when u gonna boycott that bus brother?
JJ - i aint called anybody an audist here
although i have been called an audist by several folks here and there so i do know up and personal how the term gets used and abused
wisdom dictates that we will learn to use i properly if we use it not if we refuse to learn how to spell it properly and apply it properly
re: the term audism - yep there is intentional and unintentional and while i may name someone's behavior or attitudes as being audistic in nature i do not label them an audist unless they got a strong track record of intentional audism - and thus far i have only found one person worthy of such a title - hence he is coined the father there of
but since the use of that term has now derailed us from ur answering the qeustion ill rephrase the question
- how can denying folks the right to be Deaf, the right to use ASL, the right to have their own language (as in ASL is a real language) ATTITUDES possibly promote diversity?
inquiring minds wanna know
oh and regarding the toilet seat
the issue for me is not whether or not Kat can hear it - the issue is WHY IS IT SO IMPORTANT TO MOM THAT SHE CAN?
audism - the notion that to hear and/or behave as a hearing person is superior to being Deaf
much peace
patti
Jeffrey,
ReplyDeleteYour question: "Why do you continue to post on Deaf centric sites if you want your child to be a part of the "greater" hearing world and not the Deaf community?"
Apparently different ppl have different ideas of what defines "Deaf centric" here. Are we talking about ASL-only and Deaf community ONLY? DeafRead is open to all deaf, regardless of communication mode and deafness levels.
Miss Kat is not only an ASL-user and is immersed in the Deaf community where she lives, but she is also a CI implantee who is making use of what she can hear and likes to speak as well.
Some ppl want to pass judgment on her mother for her 'tude. MKM has a right to express her opinions online, whether they jive with the Deaf community's expectations or not.
And that's the prob right there, "expectations".
The Deaf community expects MKM to say and behave a certain way.
This ain't a country club.
Ann_C
Ann,
ReplyDeleteThis has NOTHING to do with residual hearing loss, or with toilet dropping, nor whether the tub was full when the toilet lid dropped. (Oops. Toilet dropping would be a lot louder than the lid dropping... enough to wake up the dead. But that is beside the point.) It's not even that one post, which in the greater scheme of things, means absolutely nothing. Residual hearing... PFFT. Means nothing.
It has to do with A T T I T U D E. R E S P E C T, as Aretha Franklin sang...
Certain people have a bad habit of dismissing and discounting what Deaf people have to say based on history, on their own experiences while growing up, as ANCIENT HISTORY, and not applicable to today's Deaf children.
Unfortunately, what those people REFUSE to recognize is that what we went through as children CONTINUE to happen TODAY.
ATTITUDE that is perpetuated by professionals who claim to know what is best for Deaf babies and children. Attitude perpetuated by supposedly neutral websites that are anything BUT neutral. Research touted to be valid... are NOT. Most of them have been based on biased, and yes, audist, HEARING perspective of the Deaf. That perspective is formed on the premise that the state of being Deaf is unnatural and ought to be eradicated.
That persistent, pervasive ATTITUDE that Deaf children MUST learn to live in the Hearing world, and can only be done via technology (HAs, CI's)is what we decry, and loudly. (loudly... ironic term isn't it... louder than that toilet lid dropping or toilet crashing on the floor).
That ATTITUDE that produced the audistic emphasis on listening and speaking and minimizes and, or EXCLUDES, ASL is what we decry most vehemently.
The fact that parents are being denied certain information in favour of the hear/speak ideology is a travesty of truth and respect for Deaf children and their families. This omission serves to encourage the continuation of that ATTITUDE. That ATTITUDE is more harmful to Deaf children, and their families.
This OUGHT TO BE enraging certain folks, including parents. Yet, it is not. Why?
Because they are blind to the fact that that ATTITUDE exists, and in so existing creates more harm than good.
Shel
Ann C,
ReplyDeleteRe: Attitudes
Does society not expect us to refrain from discriminating others on the basis of race, color, national origin, ethnic origin, sex, sexual orientation, age, or handicap or disability?
Re: Expectations:
Is there not the expectation that Deaf children should speak and hear?
Re: Deaf Community:
A community that takes pride in having a heritage, language, and a culture. One that is particular to people who use and communicate by a means other than speaking and hearing.
Re: Deaf Centric:
Where respect and recognition of the Deaf Community, their culture and language, is central.
Persons who value speech and hearing over signing is not Deaf centric. Got it?
No this ain't a country club but hey didn't you know that there is a sign outside the Deaf Community that reads:
Members Only :)
Some people don't understand the severity of their actions. That concerns me in a big way because it is an attitude people shouldn't be carrying around with them. It's an unhealthy philosophy to live by. Resorting to name-callings, treating people with very little respect, dismissing opinions without concern nor dignity. People do not know how to agree to disagree. It's just not healthy.
ReplyDeleteSome people are committed to turning a blind eye to the problems for the sake of their agendas. We all know life isn't always fair. It is up to all of us to educate the people. It's a lifetime commitment for all of us.
Attitude is everything.
In my opinion, Jane Elliott's Blue Eyes/Brown Eyes project can be applied to this kind of situation.
Here is her website, http://www.janeelliott.com/
You can do a search on her and the experiments they have conducted based on her works. She is responsible for bringing quite a few rude awakenings to many people over the years.
Not only has MKM raised her kid within Deaf Culture, attending Deaf church, and using ASL as their primary language at home and all -- a commitment to her child's needs, first of all, and to the Deaf community that many who give "lip service" to Deaf Culture don't even do -- but she is also an outspoken proponent of ASL within the non-ASL deaf world, as well, and may bring countless new parents and their Deaf kids into our midst because she not only talks the talk, but walks the walk. She has a happy, successful bilingual kid and can show that ASL is a benefit, not an obstacle and you can have access to both sign and spoken language.
ReplyDeleteYou attack her for attitude and not giving respect. To whom? She seems to me to be respecting her Deaf child the way most Deaf wish their parents had done, rather than dismissing her child's responses and making decisions based on some stranger's ideas of what's correct or best for the child.
Roger- Good Words. Thank you
ReplyDeleteJohn-
Me? Attack Miss Kat's Mom,..naw,..you don't say?
Did I?
Hmmm...
If I did,..oh well,..she'll live. Besides,.. who are we to her?
Nobody.
ahhh based on miss kat parent's claw like answer over in the Case Scenario thread - i believe your comment re: "nobody" does answer your original question - who does she post in a "Deaf aggregator"
ReplyDeleteand so it is a deafness aggreagator and indeed to them we are....
peace
patti